Curse

GiZMo · Jan 19, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I've noticed many Ritualist builds never using the Spawning Power attribute, its PRIMARY attribute, and it brought concern to my attention. All other primary attributes have radical effects if you invest enough in them, but frankly, the Ritualist usually gets 2-3 points invested, if ever any. This concern brought about ideas that I figured might make the attribute more viable and, in fact, a necessity for effectiveness in builds, especially weapon spells.

First off, the buffing of Spawning Power. It used to be purely for the effectiveness for your spirits, but then Anet introduced the effect on weapon spells. Even with that, the attribute is very underused, and too specific for its functionality to make it apply to most builds. All Ritualists run now are 12 in channeling, 12 in restoration... and a whopping 3 in spawning. Could a ranger survive like that with 3 in Expertise? Even the paragon's primary attribute is WAY more popular than this attribute, because that attribute section has skills that work awesome and exclusive to paragon, so a suggestion would be to relook at all the Spawning Power skills and possibly give a lot of them a buffing, making a lot more of those skills very worthy of playing with. Another suggestion is to lower the duration on ALL weapon spells, and make Spawning Power increase their duration by a LOT more, almost reaching a peak of an additional 80% longer duration, so a 10 second weapon spell could last 18 seconds. Doing this will make people not only want but NEED to tap into Spawning Powers more, thus instituting more balance with Ritualists.

Secondly, I want to mention the one big, imbalanced feature of weapon spells: the inability to strip them, ever. Enchantments you can, but apparently not weapon spells. Why is that? In my honest opinion it screams imbalance, but nothing has been done about it. Once that warmonger's goes up, it'll last its whole duration, whereas say if I used the elite Shield of Regeneration to protect myself... uh oh, my enchantment got stripped by Shatter Enchantment.

Another thing about weapon spells that I'd love to see applied to ALL weapon spells are the limited uses of it (ex. "your next 1...3 attacks..."). A suggestion would be like for Warmonger's weapon: "your next 2...8 attacks interrupt targets who are not attacking." and its duration would be the same BUT, with the newly adjusted spawning power, the weapon could almost last double its duration, making a more skillful player wait and use his attacks more skillfully to interrupt rather than brainlessly train a target and hope to interrupt.

Now I went through all the Spawning Power skills and plucked out those I feel could use awesome buffs to make players use the attribute more effectively.

-Feast of Souls: change it to all spirits nearby rather than just allied spirits.
-Rupture Soul: change it to any spirit rather than an allied one.
-Reclaim Essence: change it to any spirit. To make the elite a more viable choice of an elite to bring into pvp, bring down the energy gain and make it give energy back to party members within earshot (or nearby).
-Consume Soul: change it to any spirit. Possibly change it to a spell rather than a touch skill, and make it party wide heal regardless of people's location.

One might say the elites are buffed too much. I say I just gave them a chance into the pvp world.

So let me know whatcha think. I would be really excited to see my 4 skill changes take effect the way I said =)
-

CourtjeztA · Jan 19, 2008, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiZMo

I've noticed many Ritualist builds never using the Spawning Power attribute, its PRIMARY attribute, and it brought concern to my attention. All other primary attributes have radical effects if you invest enough in them, but frankly, the Ritualist usually gets 2-3 points invested, if ever any. This concern brought about ideas that I figured might make the attribute more viable and, in fact, a necessity for effectiveness in builds, especially weapon spells.

First off, the buffing of Spawning Power. It used to be purely for the effectiveness for your spirits, but then Anet introduced the effect on weapon spells. Even with that, the attribute is very underused, and too specific for its functionality to make it apply to most builds. All Ritualists run now are 12 in channeling, 12 in restoration... and a whopping 3 in spawning. Could a ranger survive like that with 3 in Expertise? Even the paragon's primary attribute is WAY more popular than this attribute, because that attribute section has skills that work awesome and exclusive to paragon, so a suggestion would be to relook at all the Spawning Power skills and possibly give a lot of them a buffing, making a lot more of those skills very worthy of playing with. Another suggestion is to lower the duration on ALL weapon spells, and make Spawning Power increase their duration by a LOT more, almost reaching a peak of an additional 80% longer duration, so a 10 second weapon spell could last 18 seconds. Doing this will make people not only want but NEED to tap into Spawning Powers more, thus instituting more balance with Ritualists.

Secondly, I want to mention the one big, imbalanced feature of weapon spells: the inability to strip them, ever. Enchantments you can, but apparently not weapon spells. Why is that? In my honest opinion it screams imbalance, but nothing has been done about it. Once that warmonger's goes up, it'll last its whole duration, whereas say if I used the elite Shield of Regeneration to protect myself... uh oh, my enchantment got stripped by Shatter Enchantment.

Another thing about weapon spells that I'd love to see applied to ALL weapon spells are the limited uses of it (ex. "your next 1...3 attacks..."). A suggestion would be like for Warmonger's weapon: "your next 2...8 attacks interrupt targets who are not attacking." and its duration would be the same BUT, with the newly adjusted spawning power, the weapon could almost last double its duration, making a more skillful player wait and use his attacks more skillfully to interrupt rather than brainlessly train a target and hope to interrupt.

Now I went through all the Spawning Power skills and plucked out those I feel could use awesome buffs to make players use the attribute more effectively.

-Feast of Souls: change it to all spirits nearby rather than just allied spirits.
-Rupture Soul: change it to any spirit rather than an allied one.
-Reclaim Essence: change it to any spirit. To make the spirit a more viable choice of an elite to bring into pvp, bring down the energy gain and make it give energy back to party members within earshot (or nearby).
-Consume Soul: change it to any spirit. Possibly change it to a spell rather than a touch skill, and make it party wide heal regardless of people's location.

One might say the elites are buffed too much. I say I just gave them a chance into the pvp world.

So let me know whatcha think. I would be really excited to see my 4 skill changes take effect the way I said =)
-

yeye! thats pimp ! perfect analogy and descriptions! haha nice i agree 100% no no ...actually 150% gg!

govolunteers05 · Jan 19, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Very nice description!
I do think Spawning Power is the worst primary in game, and this surely will change the gameplay

But I came across this
If weapon spells are removable, then they should make it stackable.
Then, it would be as same as enchantments

So, my suggestion is this

Make weapon spell removal, but make it like

"in 5 seconds, weapon spell will get stripped", not like "instant" removal

Just my thought

GiZMo · Jan 19, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by govolunteers05

...But I came across this
If weapon spells are removable, then they should make it stackable.
Then, it would be as same as enchantments...

Very true point. I guess that's where some of the balance is. But it's still a very weird balance: at the loss of not being able to stack, it lasts the whole time. So when it comes down to it, you either have to interrupt it, or it's gg pretty much.

Phoenix Tears · Jan 20, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

the whole concept of the Ritualist is imo not very wel designed around its primary attribute, because all the unique thigns of the ritualist got splitted on all its attributes >.>

I think, the Ritualist should have been released with attributes like this from the start on:

Primary: Spawning Power
For each Point in this Attribute, will receive Ritual Ghosts, Undeads and Nature Spirits x% more Health. Every 4 Points, summoned creatures of those 3 Skill Types will also receive, when summoned +1additional tier of AL.
all those 3 types start with AL of 60, with SP 4, its then 70, with SP8, its 80, with SP12 its 90 and with SP16 it would be 100.
Every 3 Points will become Ritual Ghosts also more able to be summoned more then once.
So with SP3 you're able to summon 2 same Ritual Ghost, with SP6 it will be 3, with SP9 then 4...SP12 > 5 and SP15 then max 6 same ghosts.
This Effect of SP is a party effect, what means, that it will be enough, when 1 Ritualist has R15, so that the party becomes able to summon 6 same ghosts.
When the party reaches the max of and a 7th will be summoned, then will disappear automatically the oldest ghost.
****
Spawning Power will contain ALL kinds of Ritual Ghosts, there will be no difference of Channeling, Twilight or Renewing ....

Souls of Weapons:
This Attribute contains all kinds of Weapon Spells. Raising points here will increase the power and duration of them naturally

Occultism:
This Attribute contains Demon Pacts, so personal Buffing Skills (Enchants) through making a pact with a Demon, or summoning a Demon, for sacrificing either Health, or some Ritual Ghosts in your near. Max 1 Pact can be active, when usign a 2nd, it will replace the 1st.

Astral Sphere:
A splitted attribute, like a Twilight, which contains Party Heal Spells, which also damage nearby foes, and this for both effects - damage over time and area of effect like spells, through making a connection with the spiritual world, the Astral Sphere.
--------------------

Example Skills:

Spawning Power:

Simple think of it like Spawning, Twilight, Channeling and Renewing in one, anything what has to do with Spirits only is then here ... this way, spirits also become unique to primary ritualists, making also the primary in the end more viable at least for primarys, which are in the end the only, which can use it.

Souls of Weapons:

imagine simple an attribute, that contains all known Weapon Spells of the Ritualist we know from the other attributes

Occultism:

Demon Wings
Pact Enchant
Sacrifice 5 HP per Second, 10 Energy, CT: 3, RT 60

As long you keep up this Pact, you will steadily loose 5 HP per Second, but your Movement Speed will be increased so long by 15-33%% and Earth Elemental Skills will do no damage to you, but Holy Damage will do double damage

Eyes of Rage
Pact Enchant
Sacrifice 5 HP/sec while moving, 5 Energy, CT: 3, RT 60

As long you keep up this Pact, you will receive the red glowing Demon Eyes of Rage. While this is active, all adrenaline gained while moving, will be doubled. Whenever you use a skill that needs adrenaline for activation, while under the effect of Eyes of Rage, it will use up all adrenaline, but therfore you will roar up, like a demon, emitting a wide dark red shockwave of pure destructive chaos which hits all nearby foes for xx-xx chaos damage

Astral Sphere:

Spiritual Protective Ambush [Elite] 15E CT:5, RT:60
Skill:
Are Ritual Ghosts or Nature Spirits in your range of near, then will appear up to 8 poltergeister. These will protect the targeted Ally for up to 8 attacks/spells. Everytime normally the protected Ally would receive damage, will fly away 1 of the Poltergeists to a nearby foe and attack it up to 1-x times consecutively by simple flying through the enemies body and siphoning health from it away. The 1 Poltergeist will than transfer its siphoned health, after all its attacks are over, in a splitted wise to all party members adjacent to the ritualist. Are the no one,sthen wil receive the Ritualist the full siphoned health as heal.

Soul Leecher: 10E, 1s, 5s
Enchant Spell
For the next xx-xx seconds, whenever a foes taps into the range of one of your summoned ritual ghosts, they will suffer on -1- -2 Energy Degeneration.
While this enchant is up, you or your targeted party member will receive +1 Energy Regeneration per Enemy, which stands in range of a Ritual Ghost. (max +3) When a Ritual Ghost dies, while being under the effect of this Enchant, the enchanted ones will be healed by xx-xxx health points.

just a way i think, Ritualist could/should work in GW, beign more unque, by not being so heavily splitted up in their attributes in kind of their unique skill types.
Why have ritual ghosts and weapon spells on 4 different attributes, when its really enough to have for both kinds of skills just 1 attribute... to give the ritualist space for 2 new attributes which make the whole profession more unique and interesting

GiZMo · Jan 20, 2008, 04:23 AM // 04:23

It's a fun concept, but it's too much work to change a lot. A simple tweaking of Spawning Power is really all that's needed. Your ideas would be an awesome change in Guild Wars 2 though, I will give it that.

Biostem · Jan 20, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

I would actually like to see some sort of energy management component added to this:

"For every 2 ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit in the area dies, you gain 1 energy"

MithranArkanere · Jan 20, 2008, 04:47 AM // 04:47

And what about increasing the time that takes to cast 'Summon creature' skills?

Including all the 3seconds Necromancer and Asura summoning skills.
It could save up to 1 second, for a min of 2 seconds...?

Or getting a bonus anytime something is 'created' or 'resurrected' instead of when something dies.

Hm... Spawning power is wuite nice, but too limited compared to other primary attributes...

You can't see me · Jan 20, 2008, 06:11 AM // 06:11

I agree with the skill changes, but weapon spells, IMO, were never broken in the first place, and don't require fixing. If you're going to say something that cannot be removed is totally over powered and should be nerfed, you'll have to execute the entire paragon class.

Spawning Power needs attention, and these are some good ideas, but again, I don't think this is the answer we're looking for.

GiZMo · Jan 20, 2008, 06:26 AM // 06:26

Well the arguement over the removal was minor. The bigger stress is over making Spawning Power more acceptable and, in fact, desirable. You're right about the paragons and shouts/chants. It really wasn't that big of an issue. However, weapon spells being the unique spells they are, need more uniqueness and the limited use (like the 1..3 next attacks) is an awesome way to make the weapon spells. I honestly believe ALL weapon spells should have that function, even if it means to change some of the skills original uses (make spirit light weapon like rof but for the next 1...10 attacks). It's a neat idea to look into and would definitely change the meta (and change the way we use Ritualists.

I really am not a fan of the idea of Spawning Power being so specific. What if Soul Reaping was like "You only gain energy from warriors that die" or what if Divine Favor was like "Only players under the effects of enchantments take effect of Divine Favor." It's too damn specific, and Spawning Power tends to favor "Communing" the most, since the majority of spirits are in that attribute.

I really think Anet should look into this. It could really change the meta.

I'm constructing a list of all the skills that could be changed with this fix. Give me a bit.

Shayne Hawke · Jan 20, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

When ANet made the nerf to spirits to give them 50 less health and vulnerability to burning, I think that was their attempt at saying, "Put more points into Spawning Power so that your spirits stay alive!"

And nobody cared.

And I liked how they added the buff to make weapon spells longer, until they took just about every weapon spell I was using and cut their durations by obscene amounts.

Boost it. /signed

MithranArkanere · Jan 20, 2008, 03:57 PM // 15:57

The point with spawning power it's that is only 'useful' for 3 professions: Ritualist, Ranger and necromancer.

The rest are much widely usable with other profession combinations, specially Energy Storage.

Strength? Nice for all 5 professions with attack skills.
Expertise? Usable by anyone with attack skills, binding rituals and touch skills. That makes... well... all 10 professions.
Divine favor? For anyone using spells that target allies... that makes hm... 7.
Soul Reaping? All prfession benefit from winning energy with enemy deaths!
Fast Casting? 8 Professions have spells.
Energy Storage? Hey! All professions benefit from more energy!
Critical hits? Another one for the 5 martial weapon users.
Mysticism? Well, enchantmens are the most recurring type of skill in farming builds. This makes 8 professions again.
Leadership? This one is quite limited too, only 3 professions have shouts and only one have chants.

When you thing of a build, you start by the primary attribute and the runes.
So primary attributes should be a bit more versatile, regardless if they are powerful or not by themselves.

DreamRunner · Jan 20, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Strength is the worse primary in terms of effectiveness, the warrior however has many good skills in strength that makes people put their points into it, such as Bull's Strike and Rush.

MithranArkanere · Jan 20, 2008, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Well, ~10% armor penetration always is not so bad, specially with increase of attack speed and high damage weapons, like Hammer or Scythe.

Phoenix Tears · Jan 20, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

strength can be awesome ,when equipped with right weapon and buffed with right skills.

Take a Sundering Sword of any Bane, customize it for 20%5 more Damage

20% Armor Penetration every 5th Hit
+10-16% AP from Strength
-----
30-36%

+ 20 % from Smite Monk Skill
----
50-56% AP which means, that you can ignore half the Armor of Enemies, when buffed so, thus beign able to do double physical Damage.

With AP of 50% you hit vs. Enemies with AL of 80+16, as if they would have only AL of 48, AL60 squishies have then only a defense of AL 30.

Combine these with Skills, which increase passively the Attack Power by increasing the damage output for example with pve only skills, like the Norn one "I'm the Strongest" and skills, which increase you attack speed, which is best for sword... and you bash enemies into the ground XD.
Not to mention that you can wear with strength of 13 self the strongest armor level of 100

reachign such a high armor penetration can only 2 professions, the Warrior, and the ranger with Horn Bows, because these are the only weapons, which come with an own 10% AP Bonus
---------------------------------

About my concept there. sure not for GW1 ...i know. I hope so or so, that the professions will receive all for GW2 improved concepts ...

runeseeker1 · Jan 20, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The point with spawning power it's that is only 'useful' for 3 professions: Ritualist, Ranger and necromancer.

The rest are much widely usable with other profession combinations, specially Energy Storage.

Strength? Nice for all 5 professions with attack skills.
Expertise? Usable by anyone with attack skills, binding rituals and touch skills. That makes... well... all 10 professions.
Divine favor? For anyone using spells that target allies... that makes hm... 7.
Soul Reaping? All prfession benefit from winning energy with enemy deaths!
Fast Casting? 8 Professions have spells.
Energy Storage? Hey! All professions benefit from more energy!
Critical hits? Another one for the 5 martial weapon users.
Mysticism? Well, enchantmens are the most recurring type of skill in farming builds. This makes 8 professions again.
Leadership? This one is quite limited too, only 3 professions have shouts and only one have chants.

When you thing of a build, you start by the primary attribute and the runes.
So primary attributes should be a bit more versatile, regardless if they are powerful or not by themselves.

Divine Favor only works on Monk spells. So no, Divine Favor is only useful for Monk spells, and not anyone else.

Curse You · Jan 20, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Firs off, CourtjeztA, please do not quote the Original Post, it's totally unnecessary and just wastes space.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biostem

I would actually like to see some sort of energy management component added to this:

"For every 2 ranks in spawning power, whenever a spirit in the area dies, you gain 1 energy"

I think this could work. It picks up where Soul Reaping cuts off. It might even make people more inclined to run a Ritualist primary instead of a N/Rt.

Although, if they did make that change, they might have to lower the energy gain from [wiki]Boon of Creation[/wiki] to prevent abuse.

Vilaptca · Jan 21, 2008, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

The point with spawning power it's that is only 'useful' for 3 professions: Ritualist, Ranger and necromancer.

The rest are much widely usable with other profession combinations, specially Energy Storage.

Strength? Nice for all 5 professions with attack skills.
Expertise? Usable by anyone with attack skills, binding rituals and touch skills. That makes... well... all 10 professions.
Divine favor? For anyone using spells that target allies... that makes hm... 7.
Soul Reaping? All prfession benefit from winning energy with enemy deaths!
Fast Casting? 8 Professions have spells.
Energy Storage? Hey! All professions benefit from more energy!
Critical hits? Another one for the 5 martial weapon users.
Mysticism? Well, enchantmens are the most recurring type of skill in farming builds. This makes 8 professions again.
Leadership? This one is quite limited too, only 3 professions have shouts and only one have chants.

When you thing of a build, you start by the primary attribute and the runes.
So primary attributes should be a bit more versatile, regardless if they are powerful or not by themselves.

Uh....you know that you can only use the primary attribute of your primary profession right?

Only Necromancers can use Soul Reaping.
Only Elementalists can use Energy Storage.

MithranArkanere · Jan 21, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

And you know you can have secondary professions, right?
Expertise affects Necromancer touchs, for example.

Didn't knew that with Divine favor.
Since when it's like that..?
Maybe the spanish translation is wrong or old...
That's another bad thing.

DreamRunner · Jan 21, 2008, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix Tears

strength can be awesome ,when equipped with right weapon and buffed with right skills.

Take a Sundering Sword of any Bane, customize it for 20%5 more Damage

20% Armor Penetration every 5th Hit
+10-16% AP from Strength
-----
30-36%

+ 20 % from Smite Monk Skill
----
50-56% AP which means, that you can ignore half the Armor of Enemies, when buffed so, thus beign able to do double physical Damage.

With AP of 50% you hit vs. Enemies with AL of 80+16, as if they would have only AL of 48, AL60 squishies have then only a defense of AL 30.

Combine these with Skills, which increase passively the Attack Power by increasing the damage output for example with pve only skills, like the Norn one "I'm the Strongest" and skills, which increase you attack speed, which is best for sword... and you bash enemies into the ground XD.
Not to mention that you can wear with strength of 13 self the strongest armor level of 100

reachign such a high armor penetration can only 2 professions, the Warrior, and the ranger with Horn Bows, because these are the only weapons, which come with an own 10% AP Bonus
---------------------------------

About my concept there. sure not for GW1 ...i know. I hope so or so, that the professions will receive all for GW2 improved concepts ...

Uhm, Strength only applies when you use an attack skils. Also 20\20 is based on chance. People only put points into strength for the skills, not for the %armor penetration.

For the rit class, people will put more points into spawning power only when they're skills that will make them willing too.